"Yeah, $200 Traffic SCAMCAM Tickets 'More than You Imagined'!"

"Last Chance to Jump!"
A www.BoilingFrogs.us Production
by Freddy the Frognosticator, Mascot
info@noscamcams.com

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither. . . -–Benjamin Franklin, a “boiling frog” of his time

The Making of a Police City . . . from a Boiling Frog’s Point of View

In Niccolo [Machiavelli]'s most well-known book, The Prince, a strong emphasis is placed on the need for The Prince (or the governing body) to abandon principles and act immorally on occasion in order to achieve a particular objective (or to maintain/expand power). . . . This is unfortunately the sentiment that has not only become embodied by our "representative government" but also much of the population. . . . The US Constitution does not provide our government with authority to engage in most of what it has been doing for many decades. A constant disregard for the U. S. Constitution gives our government an open ticket to do whatever it wants without any obligation to the people . . . The Constitution was specifically written with the intention of addressing the largest modern-day problem—restricting an abusive and out-of-control government in order to protect individual liberty.
–Daniel O’Conner, The Machiavellian States of America?

What happens when government—national, state, or local—tries to “fundamentally transform” America from a self-governing nation under the rule of law to a top-down, command-and-control system that tyrannizes an increasingly compliant citizenry? And, what happens when that same government pursues those ends incrementally by starting to break their own laws—especially the Supreme Law of the Land, the U. S. Constitution?

The drama is playing out right on the street corners of our own cities and towns, as red-light "SCAMCAMS" infringe deeply upon one after another of our civil liberties.

When it comes to the incremental loss of our Constitutional rights, did you ever feel like the proverbial frog who will jump out of a pan of hot water, but when placed in cold water that is gradually heated up, will sit there until he’s cooked? I do! And, in recent times almost everybody I meet does to one degree or another. Yet, we all complain to one another, “Somebody ought to do something about it!”

Well, the water is heating up to the boiling point, leaving us with only two remaining options: either slowly boil to death, or jump out right now and do something about it before it’s too late! Fellow “boiling frogs”: there is something you can do to jump now and start making a difference!

So, what do we do when our legislators busily violate the law by passing more and more legislation to abridge our liberties? When law enforcement becomes corrupted by enforcing lawless regulations—such as issuing fake, red-light/speed traffic SCAMCAM tickets? When politicians, police, and judges alike sear their consciences by abdicating their authority to private mercenary contractors, whose mission it is to collect more money for the government and themselves, while stripping the citizenry of its wealth and trampling upon our civil rights?

Now, let's take a good look at facing off "The SCAMCAMS in Our Own Home Town--The Boiling Frogs' First Place to Land."

"Public Enemy No. 1--The Red-Light SCAMCAM!"

The proliferating red light/speed traffic SCAMCAMS in our communities present us “boiling frogs” with what might be our “last chance to jump” and, simple as it may seem, it may be our best place to jump first! Instead of trying to leap-frog to some distant area of concern way outside our own spheres of influence, we are most effective when we start right here, where we live, right in our own home town, on our own street corner, in our own sphere of influence, however small it might at first appear.

Boiling Frogs’  NoSCAMCAMS.com campaign against government gone rogue can be a first place to land, draw a line in the sand, and push-back against our present slide into a police city on the road to a police state. Only if we succeed here, I would “frognosticate,” can we become equipped to start dealing with the systemic corruption on the ever-larger, state-wide and national fronts.

My own town of Auburn, Washington, calls their traffic automated ticketing machines, “Photo-Safe.” Others of us know better, however, and we have begun to nickname them SCAMCAMS, instead. We recognize in the SCAMCAMS our clear slide toward a Big-Brother surveillance society. In many such towns and cities across our state and country, it all boils down to this:

SCAMCAMS are Unconstitutional—The SCAMCAMS are in clear violation of the letter and/or the spirit of the highest law of the land—the U. S. Constitution (as well as many state constitutions). SCAMCAMS can be shown to be an infringement upon such civil rights as: the right to privacy, the right to due process (where you’re innocent until proven guilty instead of the other way around, and where the entire burden of proof is on, in this case, the city), the right to be free from self-incrimination, the right to confront your accuser (ever tried cross-examining a traffic camera?), the right to freedom from excessive fines, the right to petition our government, the right of the people to travel freely on our own roads, and the right to be left alone—in public and private—without government harassment. Some of these rights apply, in a narrow sense, to criminal law, yet the intent of the Founders and the spirit of Constitutional law must also be applied in civil matters, for at the direction and speed our civil liberties are being eroded, it can be expected that more and more civil matters will become criminalized by a government gone rogue.

When you scrutinize any element of the following encroachments upon our civil liberties, a great rule of thumb might be to ask yourself:

Would the Founding Fathers, in their attempts to ground our God-given, natural rights in our Declaration of Independence and Constitution, have ever countenanced these kinds of scams? Go figure.

SCAMCAMS Constitute “Taxation through Citation”—"This business of using fines and traffic fees as revenue sources is just flat wrong," said Lew Uhler with the National Tax Limitation Committee. "This is simply a tax by another name."

Sorry to disappoint you, Virginia, but the SCAMCAM technology is sold to municipalities largely based upon its revenue-generation benefits. Because he understood this, Arizona’s Pinal County Sheriff, Paul Babeu, removed the SCAMCAMS in his jurisdiction on the very hour he took office, explaining it this way:

I’m against it [the use of SCAMCAMS], not only because I’m a strict Constitutionalist, but I believe its main purpose is it’s [drive] to create money for the government. In this budget deficit that’s what’s the whole design. It is corrupting law enforcement—for us to be partnered with a private entity that creates revenue. Purely, that’s their interest. . . This is yet an additional tax on hardworking men and women. . . . It’s a very hazardous road here for law enforcement to be walking down here . . .

My own Auburn’s 2010 budget review said the camera “rental” fees alone for its 15 SCAMCAMS scam the citizenry to the tune of $4,949 per camera per month, for a total of $74,192 monthly  and $890,310 annually. That’s just for the rental—easy to extract from the citizenry when they are sleeping at the wheel and the city is grossing between $124 (intersections) to $200 (school zones) per photo citation! The true SCAMCAM revenues already appear healthy enough to prop up other city budget categories, while saving up money for yet more SCAMCAMS!

Yes, the Machiavellian municipalities offer us their high-sounding ends (i.e., the well-meaning, altruistic, social-engineered, “worthwhile” projects they espouse). Yet, as modern counterparts to Machiavelli’s Prince, they are completely unjustified in their illegal, unconstitutional, liberty-trashing means. One such social engineer revealed her manipulative attitude toward the public--that's you and I--when she said: "The goal is to change and modify driving behavior" (www.bancams.com). For her, violating the will of the public is a legitimate Pavlovian means to her apparently Machiavellian ends.

Nowhere is this "sacrifice of means to ends" more obvious than in California, where the city of Los Angeles collects more than $1.8 million a year from a single intersection in the San Fernando Valley from drivers running a red light. Cost per ticket is a whopping $476!

But, the highest SCAMCAM revenue I have run across was in San Diego, where the private, for-profit, mercenary corporation carrying out San Diego’s law-enforcement obligations got to choose where the SCAMCAMS were located—i.e., in the intersections with the most revenue potential! (If any camera’s revenue dropped by 25 percent, these revenue-driven private contractors could even change the SCAMCAM locations at will for one purpose and one purpose alone--to garner higher revenue!)

According to Judge Andrew P. Napolitano's review of SCAMCAMS in his book, Constitutional Chaos: What Happens When the Government Breaks Its Own Laws, one SCAMCAM on a single San Diego intersection won the competition for the highest recorded city traffic extortion of all: $6.8 million dollars in just 18 months! This evidently prompted testimony before the U. S. House Subcommittee on Highways and Safety that the city knew that its traffic-camera program was a revenue-generating scam from the beginning, concocted “under the guise of public safety.”

Normally this highway robbery is introduced as “a pilot program,” proving one more time that “there’s nothing more permanent than a government ‘temporary program.’” And, what better way to spend the SCAMCAM revenues than to invest in yet more SCAMCAMS, as I’m told Auburn is planning to do! It’s a veritable perpetual-motion machine, a regenerating money tree, a financial fountain of abuse, a busted-budget bolsterer, a ___________________ (you can fill in the blank)!

When it comes to the government’s use of SCAMCAMS, it appears that crime does indeed pay! Now it’s time to stop the criminal “law enforcers” and eliminate the SCAMCAMS! I might even frognosticate that you might even want to keep your paid SCAMCAM tickets ready, in anticipation that, with success, someday we may even get every penny of our scammed money back! But, hey, we’re getting way ahead of ourselves for the time being, aren’t we?

SCAMCAMS Are the Crack Cocaine of the Modern Municipality—During the less-than-60 seconds it took me to ride my bicycle past an Auburn school-zone SCAMCAM recently, I watched as three of my fellow citizens got SCAMCAMMed for $200.00 each. With no children present (because they were all in class), all three drivers were driving safely at less than the adjacent arterial speed limit. A couple of weeks later, they would open their mail to discover their part in the corporate total of $600 in fake-ticket contributions they had made to city coffers in less than a minute’s time!

Yet, the social engineers who design the SCAMCAMS, the politicians who mandate them, the corporate mercenaries who run them, the police who entrap us with them, and the judges who fail to protect us from them, no longer believe the citizen drivers can assess something as simple as whether children are present or the roadway is safe.

As with shortening the yellow lights at intersections, revenue can be multiplied into the millions by simply leaving the cameras on while the children are in the classroom. It’s a no-brainer for the menacing, mercenary municipalities (no matter how unwitting you and I, a lowly frog, might perceive them to be).

SCAMCAMS Agitate and Injure Drivers—While purchasing them as revenue-generating devices, the cities promote the SCAMCAMS as safety devices to the general public. Yet, the former San Diego Mayor Roger Hedgehock testified before Congress to the effect that he had not found “a single scrap of evidence that one life had been saved” by the SCAMCAMS.

This is well corroborated by the extensive research of our own state’s WashingtonStateCampaignForLiberty.com, who at their http://wacfl.com, listed 17 unbiased studies that outlined the dangers of SCAMCAMS. Campaign for Liberty  summarized their conclusions this way:

Studies done by those that have no financial interest in Automatic Ticketing Machines reveal that traffic cameras actually cause more accidents.

SCAMCAMS have been repeatedly shown to significantly increase the number of rear-end collisions at intersections. The SCAMCAMS have converted the meaning of yellow lights from “caution” to “slam on your brakes” or “hit the gas pedal” to avoid not the other cars, but to avoid getting SCAMCAMMED! I recently met one Washingtonian who, in two separate instances, wrecked first the front, then the back of his car, as motorists braked or accelerated suddenly to avoid Big Brother’s SCAMCAM sting operations.

Scamutaries Misrepresent the Truth about SCAMCAMS

I have also lost my confidence in SCAMCAM studies and other propaganda “scamutaries” performed by the very “law-enforcement” personnel and corporate mercenaries who have the most to benefit by skewing the numbers. Only the reports of independent researchers should be admitted into evidence before our court of public opinion.

I recently endured such a propaganda scamutary produced by the SCAMCAM people on the Auburn cable channel. It included a statement by a “Constitutional lawyer” who so prostituted himself and the Constitutional truth of the matter that, were I a benevolent dictator and not just a frog, I might have disregarded the Constitution like he did and granted him a permanent view suite at Gitmo!

The scamutary concluded with a tear-jerking presentation by a lady who had almost killed a child when she ran a red light. Instead of accepting direct responsibility for her stupid, self-centered, inattentive, lawless running of the red light, she almost convinced me that the whole disaster might have been prevented had there only been SCAMCAMS at that intersection!

That’s like blaming her headaches on the lack of Tylenol!

Acutely aware of the many ways the SCAMCAMS are killing our community’s civil rights and finances, I wanted to shout back at the SCAMCAM-financed TV propaganda:

Lady! For about a year I asked people why they had the headaches they had, and 90 percent of the time they knew exactly why they had the headaches—‘I fought with my spouse’; ‘I hung one on last night’; ‘I ate junk food,’ etc.—but they weren’t willing to stop the bad habits that caused the headaches and wanted to take a Tylenol instead! Never mind what the 20-year head of a level one ER trauma center told me after personally attending to over 70,000 ER patients: ‘The Tylenol suppresses the master anti-oxidant, glutathione, in the liver, and taking Tylenol will not only fail to heal what ails you; it will eventually shut down your liver and kill you!’

So, lady, start taking responsibility for your own driving choices: turn off your cell phone and texting, quit primping in the rear-view mirror, quit abusing substances, and quit thinking your life and schedule are so damn much more important than demonstrating your love for your neighbors and family via your good driving habits. And, above all, stop being a shill for the extortionists who would have you convince us that traffic accidents are for the lack of SCAMCAMS!

If we all only made an about-turn from our lazy and self-centered driving habits, we would automatically starve out the SCAMCAMS without the need for a single legislative or legal action.

Be sure to support such worthwhile NoScamCams initiatives as those being sponsored by Tim Eyman, CampaignforLiberty.com, and www.bancams.com, while thinking about this: If we simply chose to tune up our driving habits in Auburn, Washington, we could protect our families and neighbors without the “need” any longer for the expensive SCAMCAMS! If you think my proposed solution to SCAMCAMS to bee too altruistic, perhaps we all just need a "Come to Jesus!" moment first for the internal power for such a drivers' transformation.

Our Leaders Know Full Well that SCAMCAMS Infringe Upon Our Civil Liberties—I have reason to believe that the Auburn mayor, police, and judges, if they have read the U. S. and State Constitutions and take their oaths of office seriously, know that the SCAMCAMS are an infringement upon our civil liberties (see our link to “How One Boiling Frog Beat the SCAMCAMS in Court”). Yet, if we “follow the money,” it is not hard to see how the ability to place a money-making machine on every major intersection in a city not only enables municipalities to balance their budgets on the backs of the motorists, but easily blurs their leaders’ vision of our Constitutional rights and liberties.

“What’s Another Lost Civil Right or Two?”—If we don’t stop them here and now, the coming generation of SCAMCAMS—already being introduced in Europe and expected here soon—will enable the government to monitor the citizenry with technologies that even further crush our Constitutional protections, as well as exceeding the powers of ordinary human observation. Through the use of zoom, facial-recognition, and automatic-tracking technologies, they are now capable of simultaneously ticketing you for speeding; running lights; tailgating; not wearing a seat belt; talking or texting on a cell phone; driving with improper registration, drivers license or insurance; not paying your taxes; and, who knows—perhaps even detecting whether or not you have FDA-certified, Monsanto-patented, First-Lady-endorsed GMO spinach between your front teeth! You get the idea: us “frogs” are being incrementally cooked in a vat of boiling water, making now the last and best chance to jump! And, why not jump before we completely lose our Fourth Amendment rights to “be secure in our persons” along with the many other rights already being eroded?

A friend recently commented, “There are so many SCAMCAMS in Longview, Washington, that I feel like I’m in a straight jacket in prison when I drive into that town. Even though I’ve never gotten a ticket there, I have decided to cease stopping and shopping in Longview when I travel down the I-5 corridor.”

It’s already becoming that way in my home town; how about yours? How about a little "passive aggression" here, such as the lady who no longer frequents the merchants where the SCAMCAMS have proliferated into a prison.

SCAMCAMS Treat Symptoms—Studies in several states have shown conclusively that by merely increasing the yellow-light interval at intersections, both traffic-light violations and traffic accidents can be drastically reduced. Just one second’s extension of the yellow light will normally reduce accidents by a minimum of 40 to as much as 80 percent. A test increase on a San Diego yellow light from 3.0 to 4.7 seconds dropped monthly red-light violations from 2,265 to 205!

But, wait! That might reduce or eliminate SCAMCAM revenue and maybe even SCAMCAMS themselves! Heaven (or Hell?) forbid!

A child could see the efficacy and efficiency of simply extending the yellow lights. Yet, police and politicians around the nation often opt for even shorter yellow lights, conveniently coupled with the more expensive/lucrative SCAMCAMS. A neighboring city to Auburn, for instance, recently reduced the duration of its yellow lights, which can be expected to generate even more SCAMCAM revenue for them . . . along with more injury collisions among the harassed drivers. (The proliferating boiling frogs will have to deal with them later, after our first victory in Auburn.)

"Boiling Frogs who Jump" Deal with the Real Disease—Some are content to bicker among themselves about where the SCAMCAMS should be placed, how long they should remain on, how fast you should get plundered by them, and how much the fines should be. (Washington State mandates that they cannot be more expensive than parking tickets, so the SCAMCAM municipalities like to ignore the spirit of the restriction by pegging them to the fees for their most extreme and unusual parking violations). But, the boiling frogs are not concerned with secondary issues. Instead of treating the symptoms of creeping tyranny, we strike at the real problem--the very existence of the SCAMCAMS themselves.

Twelve other states and the first few cities in Washington State have already outlawed the SCAMCAMS. I would frognosticate once again that, if “We the People” jump to right now, we can stop this harassment of the public and stop our home towns’ slide into “police cities” on the slippery slope toward a state and national police state.

Next, please proceed to "How One Boiling Frog Beat the SCAMCAMS in Court."

Freddy the Frognosticator
info@NoScamCams.com

"Exercising My Constitutional Right to 'Confront My Accuser'!"

As I awaited my SCAMCAM case in a local court, I watched with interest as several innocents got nailed for their SCAMCAM “infractions.”

Here’s an abbreviated transcription of what was said when it came time for my interaction with the judge. [I’ll leave out the part about the three misaddressed notices and consequential missed hearings—due to the typical bureaucratic bungling.] The judge was soft-spoken, and her microphone was not working that day [yet more bungling?], so I’ll do the best to give you an abbreviated account of what I thought she said. My own voice came through clearly on the transcription, however:

Judge: “Were you driving the vehicle at the time of the infraction?”

Me: “Your Honor . . . Well, I would want to ask you . . . Is there some kind of a Constitutional . . . basis for your being able to ask that question of me?”

When the judge circled around the subject and came back to our impasse, I answered the second time: “I want to ask you again what is the . . . Constitutional basis of your asking that question of me? It’s not that I’m unwilling to answer; I’m just wanting to know where we are in the light of both the Washington State Constitution and the U. S. Constitution.”

After more muffled, judicial gobbledygook, I distinctly distinguished the words: “. . . Case dismissed!”

The jangled judge dismissed the case so quickly that I didn’t even have time to ask her the question that was really on my mind:

Your Honor, the coming generations of  these so-called "Photo-Safe" red-light cameras will offer the city the possibility of placing the populous in strait jackets as it relates to their driving licenses, insurance, seat belts, cell phone usage, etc. I personally believe that these are better described as “SCAMCAMS,” for they already constitute an infringement of our Constitutional rights. But, what I wish to ask you is this: At what point on the present slippery slope toward a police city and the further loss of our Constitutional rights will your continued handing out of these revenue-generating traffic-camera citations start to become a matter of conscience for you?

I have yet to ask and get that question answered. However, in my opinion the judge showed great wisdom and restraint (if not conscience) in her immediate dismissal of my case. I would hope to think that her dismissal was a matter of conscience for her, but as I recall, I did let it slip that I was currently writing a book on the Washington “criminal, justice system” (yes, there is a comma between the words, “criminal” and “justice system), so she may have suspected that anything she said in response to my request for her Constitutional authority to pillage the populous might have been used as a quote in my book. If so, she would have been absolutely correct.

CAUTION: I am not recommending that you see my experience as a formula for you, for you may well find that other judges in other jurisdictions will have already become so hardened against the Supreme Law of the Land that they will try to throw the book at you. Yet, I would most certainly do it all over again myself, even if I had to face less desirable consequences. It's either that, or us Boiling Frogs all finally get cooked! And, the way I see it, we either all start hanging together, or we'll hang separately!

Let’s start with the www.NoScamCams.com effort first, then go on to the greater matters that now suppress us boiling frogs and surpass the oppression experienced by the Founders under the British occupation and for which the Declaration of Independence was written, the Revolutionary War fought, and the Constitution of the United States adopted.

Please proceed to "Six Ways We Can Starve out the SCAMCAMS Now!"

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world.
–Margaret Mead

"Let's See: Number One is 'Call Them SCAMCAMS'!"

Six Ways We Can Starve Out the SCAMCAMS Now!

Let my people go, or I will come and smite your land with a plague of frogs! –Moses to Pharaoh

The SCAMCAMS themselves prove that the political process in our cities and our “criminal, justice system” is already corrupted, so here are some immediate ways we can start starving out the SCAMCAMS now without having first to enlist the help of those currently abusing us:

1.    Popularize the term, “SCAMCAMS”! Employ it in your conversations; use it in your emails, text messages, Facebook and Twitters; wear “NoScamCams” buttons, or forward this NoScamCams.com link to friends.

2.    Wherever possible, avoid all intersections with SCAMCAMS and any merchants within a half a block of a SCAMCAM, unless the merchants are somehow visibly displaying their support for the NOSCAMCAMS movement. Then, please patronize them doubly!

3.    Spray your license plates with reflective gloss that makes them less visible to the SCAMCAMS. (Contact info@scamcams.com for the best, inexpensive means of accomplishing this!)

4.    Join the growing plague of boiling frogs at the SCAMCAM locations in Auburn. There are three intersection sets of SCAMCAMS—Auburn Way South and 3th S. E. (two approaches), Auburn Way South and “M” Street S. E. (two approaches), and Harvey and 8th Street N.E. (one approach). We will keep you informed when the larger demonstrations will take place, but you're encouraged to come on your own time-line whenever you want to hear lots of people honk their approval of our unstoppable froggernaut!

5.    Buy or rent a “NOSCAMCAMS.com” frog outfit from www.costumes-period.com (253) 735-4235. “Costumes, Period” owner, JoAnne Kirley, will custom design an adult frog outfit (male or female) for you at her wholesale price of $200.00 (the price of one SCAMCAM speed-zone ticket), with children froglet sizes for $124 (the price of one SCAMCAM red-light ticket). Or, get a Boiling Frogs or NoScamCams Tee Shirt from our store at info@NoScamCams.com. Or, create something yourself to make your boiling-frog statement—like perhaps a frog puppet, a mock “SCAMCAM camera-head helmet,” or a poster to display at the NOSCAMCAMS gatherings of the boiling frogs. (Come up with your own slogans, or use one of ours, such as,

“SMILE! You’re on SCAMCAMS"—www.NOSCAMCAMS.com;

“Mr. Mayor, Tear Down This SCAMCAM"—www.SCAMCAM.com; or

“_____________________________________!"—www.BoilingFrogs.us.)

6.    And, most importantly, sign the “Drive Safely without SCAMCAMS Pledge” and forward it back to us so that we can stay in touch while we eliminate this first threat to our Constitutional Republic, State, and cities.
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Whatever you do, be ever mindful that we have few Constitutional freedoms left with which to redeem the ones already taken from us. Only by grabbing our last chance to jump now, reversing our bad driving habits, drawing a line in the sand here, and taking our stand against the City Council SCAMCAM chicanery on every street corner, will we have a chance of incrementally pushing back against the many other, larger incremental assaults upon our very Constitutional Republic.

In our next link, please read, sign, and return the "Drive Safely without SCAMCAMS" Pledge.

Freddy the Frognosticator
info@noscamcams.com

"I will do my part to make Auburn, Washington, known as the place where the citizens are alert, safe, sober, law-abiding, and freedom-loving drivers. While in Auburn, I will employ only hands-free cellular devices, avoid substance abuse prior to or while driving, obey the speed limits, and drive defensively to an extraordinary degree. Until the SCAMCAMS are removed, we will together seek to starve them out through their disuse.”

Signed: ____________________    email address:_________________

Print Name:_____________________________________________

Phone: (_____) _____-___________________

Check Here: ( ___) “I would wish to receive periodic updates on the NOSCAMCAMS.com progress."

Check Here: (___) "I recognize that the SCAMCAMS are but another symptom of a disease that has been taking over our city, state, and country for some time now. But, it's a place for us to jump, to land, and to take our stand within our present spheres of influence. By incrementally pushing back here and now on our own street corners and bringing the SCAMCAMS down, we may regain the hope and strength necessary for the even-larger battles for liberty ahead. Please contact me about possibilities of volunteerism in first bringing down the SCAMCAMS in Auburn, on the road to preserving other aspects of our city, state, and very Republic itself."

NOTE: Please print or scan, sign, and either fax or email to: 206-202-1545 or info@NoScamCams.com, respectively.  Check this website often, as you can be assured that things will be constantly updated as we succeed in our battle. Click here to print this document

Disclaimer: We will not share or sell your personal information, only periodically communicating with you concerning matters of your interest, such as refinements of NOSCAMCAM strategies and the times and places of NOSCAMCAM demonstrations.

Sincerely,

Freddy the Frognosticator
info@NoScamCams.com

"Are the Frogs Starting to Multiply?"